I'm in. Whatever it takes. One thing I am noting...talking about movement is fun and exciting. Movement is difficult and scary. Movements have martyrs.
This is a great start in these conversations and I am eager to read more of this. I am particularly interested in if we can at some point clearly articulate again what are our "shared beliefs and a common cause." I wonder if you were to bring 100 Wesleyans into a room and they each built that list and could only write 3 things, would they come up with more like 75 different things, and the "shared" and "common" would be too varied these days.
I have other questions, such as:
-Are our plans “too small a thing” as in Isaiah 49:6? Is God wanting to build a movement much bigger than a refresh of our little denomination. That seems to be how God works.
-Will the new Wesleyan movement be a holiness movement, or is there some new emphasis God is up to... or can holiness be rearticulated in a compelling way that sweeps up the new generation and perhaps even leaves my generation behind and lagging? That wouldn't be so bad. Would be exciting.
-What role are lay people playing? Lay people seem less engaged in what it means to be Wesleyan that at any time in our history. This is largely an ordained persons conversation. That's a sign movement is FAR away.
-Are north American political movements far too strong in the psyche of Wesleyans for us to focus on what matter more? Are our people rallied around those "shared beliefs and common causes" far more than anything our denomination has to do and say, and so the efforts are futile to get them refocused on what matters for eternity?
...Those are my initial tough questions for this august and brilliant group. I trust y'all and would follow ya where you're going. I'm cheering on this conversation.
I agree that the heart of many leaders and future leaders of the Wesleyan Church is to see it become a movement once again. I am one of them. I have been part of conversations like this for years now and it seem like our response has been to employ more people and groups to study and diagnose the problem. However, if I am completely honest, every time I am brought into the conversation there is a tug in my spirit to say, "get to work." If we are so serious about the work of the movement of God, then we have to be personally engaging in the movement of God. I love this conversation, but I also feel like it is time to quite talking about it and for each of us that are part of the conversation to evaluate our personal lives and get to the work of the Kingdom.
Love this conversation and thank you all for starting it!
Here are a few questions/thoughts:
- Can I gently ask if our stream of Methodism was ever a movement? Maybe it was, but I don’t know that we could look at the Wesleyan Methodist or Pilgrim Holiness churches as meeting the marks of a movement. Winfield Bevins suggests six marks of the Methodist movement: Changed Lives, Contagious Faith, The Holy Spirit, Discipleship Systems, Apostolic Leadership, Organic Multiplication. There were some of these in the early days but maybe not others. I am happy to be corrected! Again, I'm not talking about the early days of Methodism, but about the birth and life cycles of the two denominations who are our immediate ancestors.
- The early space program was built on a negative rather than a positive. It was sold on the premise “we have to beat the Russians to the moon.” (stick with me….) The problem was, once we beat the Russians there was no political will to continue exploration. The Apollo program was cut back, missions we had spacecraft and crew for already were cancelled. We settled for twenty years of low earth orbit in the space shuttle and it’s fifty years later and we haven’t been back to the moon, much less beyond.
I say all of that to say my perception is what a movement is catalyzed around determines its momentum and sustainability.
Our stream of the Methodist movement’s roots were in a collective discontent with the evil of slavery. Once that was “done” (understanding it was not done and we missed the mark on racial reconciliation and restoration), we set our sights on other cultural ills. What does it look like for a holiness movement to be about moving towards something rather than away from something? I feel like some want a restoration of a holiness movement to be about an updated list of what we don’t like, which I don’t think gets us there.
- I agree with Dave, that lack of lay connection to and empowerment in our current models and polity builds barriers toward movement.
Andy, you said, “What does it look like for a holiness movement to be about moving towards something rather than away from something? I feel like some want a restoration of a holiness movement to be about an updated list of what we don’t like, which I don’t think gets us there.” I couldn’t agree more. This should be a top priority in our conversations.
I think your question about "were we ever a movement?" is a good one--and I think the answer is NO for our post 1968 denomination of course. In fact, statistically, we might argue about what era of TWC was best but overall any statistician would say our entire history post-merger was basically plateau or decline. Both denominations that merged were growing prior to merger, however, although I'm not sure either would be classified as "movement."
I am agreement with you and David regarding the history of The Wesleyan Church specifically. We have never experienced movement. For our purposes regarding these articles, we will be going back to the originator of the Methodist movement for some of the principles or pillars or geniuses that caused it to be what it was. On the other hand, we are not interested in going back to something that was, but experiencing a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit. As most of us have noted,new wine won’t always fit in old wine skins, and it will be uncomfortable.
It can’t always be what we’re against, but what we are for, that will ultimately sustain us and cause long-term movement.
Sometimes, when I think about new wine, I think about rebellion of the status quo. We actually think there are a lot of beautiful things about The Wesleyan Church, but there does need to be a disruption if we are going to experience the new that God has for us.
Our first article for discussion should get uploaded next week. Thanks for engaging!!
Thanks for the interaction Andy...great clarifying question and really good thoughts which will help as we continue to write ensuing articles. My personal perspective, in short, is that TWC since 1968 has never been confused as a movement, but if we aren't tracing our heritage directly back to Wesley's organization, principles, and passion, then we should have chosen a different name for our denomination. I think we have as much of a direct-line claim as any modern Wesleyan-Methodist denomination. That original Methodist disruptive movement is the movement I (and I think my co-writers) have in mind when we are talking movement. If we aren't claiming that as our heritage, a denomination name change might be in order.
My daily prayer is to be grateful to God for what He’s done in my life so far followed by a desire to experience “what’s next”. Too many are too easily satisfied, leading to ineffectiveness and complacency, just as the article describes. If this conversation does nothing more than continue to stir my passion for those without Jesus, I’m in. If the results are far greater, to God be the glory.
Beautiful article Logan! Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful words. I do think that we need to prioritize the move of the Holy Spirit as the primary ideal and any structure serves that outcome. Not enough structure can be just as harmful as too much structure but we need to be willing to evaluate in that light and adapt to the outcome we desire. I do find it interesting that there is a lot of talk about decentralized leadership in movements and yet from what I can tell, Wesley might have been one of the most centralized leaders of a movement ever.
We hope in a future article to talk a lot about governance and structures and how they impact movement and what is appropriate for this next season of The Wesleyan Church. We need your voice, so keep pressing in!
I'm in as well. Phillip reminded me of a quote from the movie "Moneyball" where the owner of the Red Sox said to Billy Bean "I know you've taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall. It always gets bloody, always. It's the threat of not just the way of doing business, but in their minds it's threatening the game. But really what it's threatening is their livelihoods, it's threatening their jobs, it's threatening the way that they do things."
I'm looking forward to these conversations. As a multi ethnic church we have learned to measure our success in different ways. Some in our tribe have called it 'social holiness' and I like that term. It has caused me to question much of what I thought I was supposed to do as a pastor and that can be isolating so just seeing this Loyal Disruption group is a great encouragement! Thanks for taking the risk and getting this started, I'm honored to be included!
I am 100% in for the journey. I subscribed and am ready to wrestle!!! I want to use whatever influence the Lord would allow me to have in catalyzing movement within TWC—for the sake of the Kingdom!!!!
I’m relatively new to the Wesleyan Church Family (since 2019) and in that time I’ve focused mainly on the practioner side of things so I can’t speak to the historical side of the Wesleyan movement. However I think the world is undergoing many tectonic shifts and we need a variety of methodologies to be embraced and deployed if we are going to keep recruiting young ministers and reaching more people for God. Great article - Thanks Billy
Thanks for sharing this movement within our Wesleyan movement. The heart that is evident in the article, speaks to a desire to exalt the plan of God above the traditions of men. I’m all in for that kind of movement.
Thank you for the post! I am praying for a rediscovery of purpose and vision! And while these statistics look bleak, I also realize that there are pockets where the church is thriving! Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from those who are in those roles. Perhaps the best days of the church don't have to be behind us! In order for that to become reality, much ministry does need to change; and I agree that it will likely be uncomfortable for many of us. But I believe that it can happen! In fact, I have seen it firsthand!
Last night, we hosted a funeral at our church for a 35 year old whose family attended the church some years ago before moving away. The son remained in the area but didn’t attend anymore.
SO many of his friends flooded in the doors . It was rough, raw, uncomfortable at times..but it was real. It gave us a beautiful opportunity to love and care for about 130 people, many of whom were young and seemingly clueless to things of God. The stories were unfiltered —- the people wore no masks. We hugged, we welcomed people as they are, we invited them to call on us if they need to talk, grab coffee, or just grieve.
If we’re going to be a movement, we have to get uncomfortable —-
I once wrote and shared a devotion on "Being comfortable with being uncomfortable" because I know and believe it is in that uncomfortable space the Lord does his greatest work. I believe we are in need of a great pruning and until that happens, we won't see vibrant, healthy, transformational growth. I couldn't agree more that we have built many idols in our churches and sacrificed God's ways for man's comfort on them. I AM IN without reservation, I AM IN even if it means being a casualty.
I'm in. Whatever it takes. One thing I am noting...talking about movement is fun and exciting. Movement is difficult and scary. Movements have martyrs.
This is a great start in these conversations and I am eager to read more of this. I am particularly interested in if we can at some point clearly articulate again what are our "shared beliefs and a common cause." I wonder if you were to bring 100 Wesleyans into a room and they each built that list and could only write 3 things, would they come up with more like 75 different things, and the "shared" and "common" would be too varied these days.
I have other questions, such as:
-Are our plans “too small a thing” as in Isaiah 49:6? Is God wanting to build a movement much bigger than a refresh of our little denomination. That seems to be how God works.
-Will the new Wesleyan movement be a holiness movement, or is there some new emphasis God is up to... or can holiness be rearticulated in a compelling way that sweeps up the new generation and perhaps even leaves my generation behind and lagging? That wouldn't be so bad. Would be exciting.
-What role are lay people playing? Lay people seem less engaged in what it means to be Wesleyan that at any time in our history. This is largely an ordained persons conversation. That's a sign movement is FAR away.
-Are north American political movements far too strong in the psyche of Wesleyans for us to focus on what matter more? Are our people rallied around those "shared beliefs and common causes" far more than anything our denomination has to do and say, and so the efforts are futile to get them refocused on what matters for eternity?
...Those are my initial tough questions for this august and brilliant group. I trust y'all and would follow ya where you're going. I'm cheering on this conversation.
Also, Logan Hoffman wrote up this article asking key questions in response to this article. IT's called "Institutional Movement" at his Substack:
https://deolaudes.substack.com/p/institutional-movement
Relevant:
‘Wesley Is Fire Now’ and Evangelicals Are Being Strangely Warmed
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2024/09/wesley-is-fire-now-methodist-turn/?fbclid=IwY2xjawFWdzZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHWa0Bp0emyeETW2hhgvOQdEsQ7aR6HofOjae6eHOXG89BBIqcH4qAPsqBA_aem_8P2HHDqDvQYg7PagcrSznA
I agree that the heart of many leaders and future leaders of the Wesleyan Church is to see it become a movement once again. I am one of them. I have been part of conversations like this for years now and it seem like our response has been to employ more people and groups to study and diagnose the problem. However, if I am completely honest, every time I am brought into the conversation there is a tug in my spirit to say, "get to work." If we are so serious about the work of the movement of God, then we have to be personally engaging in the movement of God. I love this conversation, but I also feel like it is time to quite talking about it and for each of us that are part of the conversation to evaluate our personal lives and get to the work of the Kingdom.
Love this conversation and thank you all for starting it!
Here are a few questions/thoughts:
- Can I gently ask if our stream of Methodism was ever a movement? Maybe it was, but I don’t know that we could look at the Wesleyan Methodist or Pilgrim Holiness churches as meeting the marks of a movement. Winfield Bevins suggests six marks of the Methodist movement: Changed Lives, Contagious Faith, The Holy Spirit, Discipleship Systems, Apostolic Leadership, Organic Multiplication. There were some of these in the early days but maybe not others. I am happy to be corrected! Again, I'm not talking about the early days of Methodism, but about the birth and life cycles of the two denominations who are our immediate ancestors.
- The early space program was built on a negative rather than a positive. It was sold on the premise “we have to beat the Russians to the moon.” (stick with me….) The problem was, once we beat the Russians there was no political will to continue exploration. The Apollo program was cut back, missions we had spacecraft and crew for already were cancelled. We settled for twenty years of low earth orbit in the space shuttle and it’s fifty years later and we haven’t been back to the moon, much less beyond.
I say all of that to say my perception is what a movement is catalyzed around determines its momentum and sustainability.
Our stream of the Methodist movement’s roots were in a collective discontent with the evil of slavery. Once that was “done” (understanding it was not done and we missed the mark on racial reconciliation and restoration), we set our sights on other cultural ills. What does it look like for a holiness movement to be about moving towards something rather than away from something? I feel like some want a restoration of a holiness movement to be about an updated list of what we don’t like, which I don’t think gets us there.
- I agree with Dave, that lack of lay connection to and empowerment in our current models and polity builds barriers toward movement.
Andy, you said, “What does it look like for a holiness movement to be about moving towards something rather than away from something? I feel like some want a restoration of a holiness movement to be about an updated list of what we don’t like, which I don’t think gets us there.” I couldn’t agree more. This should be a top priority in our conversations.
great thinking!
I think your question about "were we ever a movement?" is a good one--and I think the answer is NO for our post 1968 denomination of course. In fact, statistically, we might argue about what era of TWC was best but overall any statistician would say our entire history post-merger was basically plateau or decline. Both denominations that merged were growing prior to merger, however, although I'm not sure either would be classified as "movement."
I am agreement with you and David regarding the history of The Wesleyan Church specifically. We have never experienced movement. For our purposes regarding these articles, we will be going back to the originator of the Methodist movement for some of the principles or pillars or geniuses that caused it to be what it was. On the other hand, we are not interested in going back to something that was, but experiencing a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit. As most of us have noted,new wine won’t always fit in old wine skins, and it will be uncomfortable.
It can’t always be what we’re against, but what we are for, that will ultimately sustain us and cause long-term movement.
Sometimes, when I think about new wine, I think about rebellion of the status quo. We actually think there are a lot of beautiful things about The Wesleyan Church, but there does need to be a disruption if we are going to experience the new that God has for us.
Our first article for discussion should get uploaded next week. Thanks for engaging!!
Thanks for the interaction Andy...great clarifying question and really good thoughts which will help as we continue to write ensuing articles. My personal perspective, in short, is that TWC since 1968 has never been confused as a movement, but if we aren't tracing our heritage directly back to Wesley's organization, principles, and passion, then we should have chosen a different name for our denomination. I think we have as much of a direct-line claim as any modern Wesleyan-Methodist denomination. That original Methodist disruptive movement is the movement I (and I think my co-writers) have in mind when we are talking movement. If we aren't claiming that as our heritage, a denomination name change might be in order.
“ movements begin with a love for lost and broken people” YES! And it starts with me and my love for the lost and broken children of God.
My daily prayer is to be grateful to God for what He’s done in my life so far followed by a desire to experience “what’s next”. Too many are too easily satisfied, leading to ineffectiveness and complacency, just as the article describes. If this conversation does nothing more than continue to stir my passion for those without Jesus, I’m in. If the results are far greater, to God be the glory.
Looking forward to the next installment! My thoughts in response filled more space than a comment would allow, so I published them here:
https://open.substack.com/pub/deolaudes/p/institutional-movement?r=4953z1&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Beautiful article Logan! Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful words. I do think that we need to prioritize the move of the Holy Spirit as the primary ideal and any structure serves that outcome. Not enough structure can be just as harmful as too much structure but we need to be willing to evaluate in that light and adapt to the outcome we desire. I do find it interesting that there is a lot of talk about decentralized leadership in movements and yet from what I can tell, Wesley might have been one of the most centralized leaders of a movement ever.
We hope in a future article to talk a lot about governance and structures and how they impact movement and what is appropriate for this next season of The Wesleyan Church. We need your voice, so keep pressing in!
I'm in as well. Phillip reminded me of a quote from the movie "Moneyball" where the owner of the Red Sox said to Billy Bean "I know you've taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall. It always gets bloody, always. It's the threat of not just the way of doing business, but in their minds it's threatening the game. But really what it's threatening is their livelihoods, it's threatening their jobs, it's threatening the way that they do things."
I'm looking forward to these conversations. As a multi ethnic church we have learned to measure our success in different ways. Some in our tribe have called it 'social holiness' and I like that term. It has caused me to question much of what I thought I was supposed to do as a pastor and that can be isolating so just seeing this Loyal Disruption group is a great encouragement! Thanks for taking the risk and getting this started, I'm honored to be included!
I am 100% in for the journey. I subscribed and am ready to wrestle!!! I want to use whatever influence the Lord would allow me to have in catalyzing movement within TWC—for the sake of the Kingdom!!!!
I’m relatively new to the Wesleyan Church Family (since 2019) and in that time I’ve focused mainly on the practioner side of things so I can’t speak to the historical side of the Wesleyan movement. However I think the world is undergoing many tectonic shifts and we need a variety of methodologies to be embraced and deployed if we are going to keep recruiting young ministers and reaching more people for God. Great article - Thanks Billy
Thanks for sharing this movement within our Wesleyan movement. The heart that is evident in the article, speaks to a desire to exalt the plan of God above the traditions of men. I’m all in for that kind of movement.
Thank you for the post! I am praying for a rediscovery of purpose and vision! And while these statistics look bleak, I also realize that there are pockets where the church is thriving! Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from those who are in those roles. Perhaps the best days of the church don't have to be behind us! In order for that to become reality, much ministry does need to change; and I agree that it will likely be uncomfortable for many of us. But I believe that it can happen! In fact, I have seen it firsthand!
I am in and thrilled to be a part of the discussion. Praying forward
100% in 🙌🏽 —- whatever it takes
<I had a glimpse…>
Last night, we hosted a funeral at our church for a 35 year old whose family attended the church some years ago before moving away. The son remained in the area but didn’t attend anymore.
SO many of his friends flooded in the doors . It was rough, raw, uncomfortable at times..but it was real. It gave us a beautiful opportunity to love and care for about 130 people, many of whom were young and seemingly clueless to things of God. The stories were unfiltered —- the people wore no masks. We hugged, we welcomed people as they are, we invited them to call on us if they need to talk, grab coffee, or just grieve.
If we’re going to be a movement, we have to get uncomfortable —-
I once wrote and shared a devotion on "Being comfortable with being uncomfortable" because I know and believe it is in that uncomfortable space the Lord does his greatest work. I believe we are in need of a great pruning and until that happens, we won't see vibrant, healthy, transformational growth. I couldn't agree more that we have built many idols in our churches and sacrificed God's ways for man's comfort on them. I AM IN without reservation, I AM IN even if it means being a casualty.
I’m in too. For all of it.